Aggressive gun-rights bill widely supported, opposed

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HELENA - At a marathon hearing Thursday, backers and opponents of a bill to expand gun rights in Montana painted distinctly different pictures of the state and its gun laws.


Proponents of House Bill 228 said gun owners in Montana are now held captive by gray areas in Montana statute that could lead to them being prosecuted for defending themselves with their firearm, or even displaying a pistol to deter would-be attackers.

But opponents said the laws already on the books work, and that the expanded gun-rights bill would hamper law enforcement’s ability to prosecute people whom they believe had wrongly used a gun.

The bill, sponsored by Rep. Krayton Kerns, R-Laurel, is almost identical to a bill carried by then-Rep. Jack Wells, R-Bozeman, in the 2007 session.

If passed, the bill would, among other things:

= allow people to carry a concealed weapon without a permit;

= greatly strengthen self-defense protections in the state;

= allow people to display their gun to deter an attack;

= allow people to use a gun whenever at risk of physical harm;

= and, in shooting incidents in which the person who fired the gun claimed self defense, require the state to prove that it was not.

More than 20 people lined up to support the bill, including a representative from the National Rifle Association and private citizens from Eureka to Joliet.

“Too often, the victim becomes the criminal in our system,” said Brian Judy of the NRA.

Kerns told the House Judiciary Committee that Montana is made safer by armed citizens. He cited the recent shooting in Glasgow, and said while the assailant in that case killed one and wounded two others, a private citizen with a gun was reportedly able to prevent the shooter from causing more damage.

The bill was crafted by Gary Marbut, president of the Montana Shooting Sports Association. Marbut said he aims to clear up ambiguous parts of Montana’s gun law.

“We do have the right to bear arms, but there are gray areas in the law,” he said, including when it is OK to use a gun in self defense.

But Montana’s law-enforcement community, including Gallatin County Sheriff Jim Cashell, came out strongly against the bill at the hearing, saying it could escalate gun violence and make it easier for criminals to cite self defense to avoid prosecution.

Cashell said Montana cops already do a good job distinguishing when shootings are in self defense.

“Our job is to go in and sort these situations out, and we’re pretty good at it,” he said. “(HB) 228 creates an unreasonable burden.”

Dennis Paxinos, Yellowstone County attorney, said the bill fixes a problem that doesn’t exist.

“There is no case, there is no reason, for such a huge change in our criminal code,” he said.

Paxinos described a scenario in which two gangs approached each other in a public park. Under Kern’s bill, he said, it would be legal for both gangs to display their weapons to each other, then open fire.

“It eviscerates the tools we use now to combat these idiots,” he said.

He also took issue with a provision of the law that would require counties to cover attorney fees if a defendant claiming self defense is acquitted. Paxinos said that would have a “chilling effect” on prosecution.

Law-enforcement officials are supporting two other gun bills that also clarify self defense laws in Montana, but which are narrower in scope.

The committee took no action on Kerns’ bill.

Daniel Person can be reached at dperson@dailychronicle.com.




Reader Comments

The following are comments from the readers. In no way do they represent the view of The Bozeman Daily Chronicle. Please read our Online Users Agreement.

bozexpat wrote on Jan 23, 2009 10:10 AM:

" As a former Bozeman resident I find this gun proposal very strange. I now live in New Orleans, a city plagued with gun violence. The very idea of unregistered concealed weapons is inconcievable. I am suprised that law enforcement has not come out against this. I know in my adopted town only criminals would support a bill like this. Be careful what you wish for. "

whiskey wrote on Jan 23, 2009 10:42 AM:

" Well Bozeman is not New Orleans and niether is the rest of Montana. I am one of the law abiding this bill seeks to protect, not some punk criminal. Criminals don't care about the law. I suggest you read the text of house bill 228 before you let you anti-liberty bias condemn it as some sort of measure to help criminals. "

Aksarben wrote on Jan 23, 2009 11:38 AM:

" I hope and support the passing of HB 228, even though I am not from Montana. I have a sister and her family that live in Montana. With this, it will be closer to Vermont and Alaska in it's rights to it's citizens for self protection. By the way, those 2 states rank 49th and 50th in lowest violent crime rate. Gun control and lower crime is a dream to entice un-educated folks into belief that this is good for the security. ANY gun control is bad for security and peace and well being of the affected citizens. Criminals do not care whether there is a bill that opens up more rights to citizens as they will always do as they please anyway. I have not seen any criminal that obeyed the registering of handguns, following the rules set out by law abiding citizens, or stay out of "gun free" zones. They do as they please and they would probably vote against such a bill to make sure that their job "IS" easier and less dangerous. Criminals do not want an armed populace. Furthermore, the citizens do not want the government to strip of this right to keep and bear arms, because it is the gateway to keeping intact all the other rights that our Forefathers saw fit to pen into the Constitution. We have enough gun laws already, and to eliminate the restrictive hold that law abiding citizens have that criminals already have is important. I hope it passes with great support. "

Aksarben wrote on Jan 23, 2009 11:40 AM:

" By the way, I am a former Deputy Sheriff and I see value in HB228 as a step in the right direction to our citizens of this or any other state. "

druid_ wrote on Jan 23, 2009 12:40 PM:

" Citizens of Montana, get out there and show your support for this bill! When you consider the options, this is your best shot at ensuring your security and the safety of your loved ones. You are being offered rights that people who live in even the most pro-gun states would gladly embrace, if given the opportunity. You won't be sorry you did! Come talk to us on our forum about it: http://rtkba.com/forums/index.php? "

nucleus wrote on Jan 23, 2009 1:49 PM:

" When are we going to allow permit holders to carry in school buildings? This is a tragedy waiting to happen! Parents, teachers and staff need to be able to carry in school to prevent the next school shooting. "

springfield wrote on Jan 23, 2009 3:26 PM:

" Every law abiding citizen in the state of Montana who has any concern for our safety and/or right to bear arms must get out and support this bill. Violent crimes are popping up more and more all over this state. This is happening without the existence of any bill like 228, again confirming that criminals and anyone with criminal intent are going to use and carry a firearm regardless of the law. House Bill 228 protects and enhances our right to defend ousrselves. Gun control only takes the gun and defense out of the hands of law abiding citizens. If you think that gun control is going to stop criminals from using guns to commit crimes, take a look at how well the "war on drugs" has done! Criminals will possess drugs whether they are legal or not, criminals will possess guns whether they are legal or not. Plain and simple. We must do everything we can to get this bill passed to defend ourselves. This opportunity may never come again! "

MeMyselfAndI wrote on Jan 23, 2009 3:50 PM:

" Hey everyone!

Let's get a statistical readout of all the crimes that were actually prevented because the owner defended his/herself with a gun vs. how many gun deaths could have been prevented had this law been in effect.

Then let's talk. "

Basil wrote on Jan 23, 2009 8:00 PM:

" Defensive uses of firearms (in which a gun is rarely fired) number around 2 million a year. Fatal gun accidents have been dropping and are around a thousand a year nationwide.

Here is a collection of statistical information and discussion on the question.

http://keepandbeararms.com/information/XcInfoBase.asp?CatID=244

http://keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=1310
Gun Accidents drop to 900 in 1998. Lowest number since 1903

Reflecting the value of safety efforts by industry, the National Rifle Association and many volunteer groups, a report by the National Safety Council (NSC) shows accidental firearms fatalities reached an all-time low of 900 in 1998 - the fewest fatal accidents since such record keeping began in 1903.

Fatal gun accidents have been declining for many years, but this was the first time the national total dropped below 1,000.

The 900 figure for 1998 represents a decline of 18%, from the previous year, a decline of 40% for the 10-year period 1989 to 1998, and a decline of 65 % since 1974 when 2,513 fatal firearms accidents occurred.

The Safety Council tracks unintentional injuries and deaths due to a variety of causes. The 900 accidental firearms-related fatalities reported by the NSC for 1998 compares with

* 41,200 deaths related to motor vehicle accidents,

* 16,600 in falls,

* 4,100 in drownings,

* 3,700 due to fire or burns,

* 3,200 due to choking, and

* 9,400 from poisoning, in the same year.

Firearms-related deaths in the home are at an historic low, as well. Of the total number of accidental fatalities attributed to firearms in 1998, 700 of these occurred in the home, a decline of 12.5% from the previous year.

Source: The New Gun Week, January 2000

Recent examples of citizens defending themselves with firearms:

http://www.progunleaders.org/Legis09/DefensiveUseOfForce.html

This bill clarifies grey areas in the law that could result in damage to law abiding victims of crime who used a firearm in self defense.

It also specifies that the presumption of iinnocence is in effect in Montana. Police and prosecutors always prefer if you have to prove your innocence, but our rights are best protected by the traditional view, that you do have the presumption of innocence.

The bill also establishes that you can carry a gun concealed by an article of clothing (the definition of "concealed") inside city limits in Montana, without a concealed carry permit. You already can do this in the big part of Montana that is outside of city limits. You can also currently carry a gun that is inside a purse or pack or briefcase (that is, not covered by an article of clothing) inside city limits without a permit, legally.

Some people dislike the idea of putting their name on a list of gun owners. That could potentially be unhealthy. (But some prefer to get the concealed carry license because a lot of other states have reciprocity agreements with Montana and they honor each other's permits. This is a good thing if you are travelling on the highways. A permit also makes it easier to purchase firearms. )

This is an important bill worthy of your active support. "

Donnie wrote on Jan 23, 2009 9:35 PM:

" Sen. Larry Jent's ( SB 92) and Rep. Kendall Van Dyk's (HB 36) bills should be considered Fake Self-Defense Bills as they do not propose any substantial changes in the law. I believe they are feel good political attempts to make Jent and Van Dyk appear to be gun rights advocates.
Here are some links for those who desire factual information on HB 228
The first link offers qualified explanations of each section of the bill and reasons the changes are needed. http://progunleaders.org/Self-defense/ Note Section's 1 and 11 as these may explain why certain prosecutors and police officials do not support HB 288 but instead have lent their support to the do nothing bills.
The complete text of Rep. Krayton Kerns bill HB 228 can be found at http://data.opi.mt.gov/bills/2009/billhtml/HB0228.htm
Call and or write your local legislators and ask them to support HB 228 "

futureMontanaRebel wrote on Jan 24, 2009 6:43 AM:

" Legislation such as this is what helps the rest of us keep faith in America and Americans.

I recently moved from New Orleans where I lived for three years, so I can definitely speak to the crime and criminals there. Do you honestly think criminals care about a law banning concealed carry or a law requiring a license for concealed carry? Absolutely not!

Legislation such as this is essential to put honest, law-abiding citizens on a more even playing field with the criminals who seek to do them harm.

I applaud Montana in its efforts to maintain personal liberty! "

druid_ wrote on Jan 28, 2009 5:50 AM:

" Nice numbers, Basil! OK...you guys have the facts. Now, go tell your representatives to vote for this. And tell your friends to do the same thing. Tell anyone who will listen! This is big and this is important! "

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